Post by: CigarBanter on March 11, 2022, 12:01:32 AM
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 12:03:11 AM
Probably not going to make it. Just too many posts short.Valiant effort.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 12:04:20 AM
Just too little source material to work from.Probably not going to make it. Just too many posts short.Valiant effort.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 05:59:43 AM
(https://c.tenor.com/8wwZr-7Dl5gAAAAM/excited-dance.gif)
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 06:00:14 AM
La Gloria Cubana Wavell - 10/39.99
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 06:00:59 AM
Door #1 - Rocky Patel Olde World Reserve Maduro Toro - 10/49.99
Door #2 - Drew Estate Undercrown Maduro Toro Especial - 10/59.99
Door #3 - Padilla Cazadores Toro Gordo - 10/24.99
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 06:01:38 AM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 06:05:27 AM
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 06:32:03 AM
I did end up biting on those Mark Twains from yesterday. Should make for a nice weekend smoke when I want something to last a while.I'll refrain from making the obvious joke. But kidding aside, I think that was a good deal. Curious how it will smoke.
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 06:35:19 AM
Raz - I'm the same way with Wordle. I play, but only share the results with my wife. No one else cares.We have a family competition going and results go into that group chat. We just recently added heardle to the mix but that hasn't been going well for me.
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 06:35:38 AM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 06:44:22 AM
Lol, and I anticipated the joke and tried to make it as non-jokey as I could.I did end up biting on those Mark Twains from yesterday. Should make for a nice weekend smoke when I want something to last a while.I'll refrain from making the obvious joke. But kidding aside, I think that was a good deal. Curious how it will smoke.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
My oldest likes to brag about her high completion rate, even though she missed one a couple days ago.Raz - I'm the same way with Wordle. I play, but only share the results with my wife. No one else cares.We have a family competition going and results go into that group chat. We just recently added heardle to the mix but that hasn't been going well for me.
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 07:03:21 AM
I missed BRINE the other day. I went with a last guess of URINE. My youngest got that one in two tries because it turns out urine is his go-to first word... BOYS!My oldest likes to brag about her high completion rate, even though she missed one a couple days ago.Raz - I'm the same way with Wordle. I play, but only share the results with my wife. No one else cares.We have a family competition going and results go into that group chat. We just recently added heardle to the mix but that hasn't been going well for me.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 07:08:36 AM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 07:10:22 AM
LALTSI missed BRINE the other day. I went with a last guess of URINE. My youngest got that one in two tries because it turns out urine is his go-to first word... BOYS!My oldest likes to brag about her high completion rate, even though she missed one a couple days ago.Raz - I'm the same way with Wordle. I play, but only share the results with my wife. No one else cares.We have a family competition going and results go into that group chat. We just recently added heardle to the mix but that hasn't been going well for me.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 07:10:37 AM
Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.Morning, UberRaz.
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 07:24:43 AM
Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.No masks?
Good morning, Bret.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 08:10:08 AM
(http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Somebody-Stop-Me-Gif-In-The-Mask.gif)Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.No masks?
Good morning, Bret.
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 08:43:33 AM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 08:44:38 AM
Have we had a mask lull?Hard to believe we haven't yet coming up on 2 years of this nonsense.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 09:14:34 AM
Please do not joke. We can have you arrested for that.Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.No masks?
Good morning, Bret.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 09:22:10 AM
We'll monitor the news sites for reports of a plane having to be diverted.Please do not joke. We can have you arrested for that.Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.No masks?
Good morning, Bret.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 09:51:07 AM
I'll say. Shot my load on Wednesday.Just too little source material to work from.Probably not going to make it. Just too many posts short.Valiant effort.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 09:52:42 AM
Yea, too easy, I'll pass too.I did end up biting on those Mark Twains from yesterday. Should make for a nice weekend smoke when I want something to last a while.I'll refrain from making the obvious joke. But kidding aside, I think that was a good deal. Curious how it will smoke.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 09:56:07 AM
Raz - I'm the same way with Wordle. I play, but only share the results with my wife. No one else cares.Go with Lewdle instead. Broader vocabulary... :o
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 09:57:39 AM
Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.Don't forget your mask!
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 09:59:11 AM
OK, so I didn't read page 2 before comment. Sue me.Morning, muchachos. I'll be your airport shuttle service this morning. Please have your boarding passes and picture ID ready.Don't forget your mask!
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 10:01:06 AM
Morning BathroomHumorTony, WordleKingDave and AllDayAllNightRaz.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 10:03:19 AM
Today is Friday, March 11, the 70th day of 2022.
There are 295 days left in the year.Today’s Highlight in History:
On March 11, 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Lend-Lease Bill, providing war supplies to countries fighting the Axis.
On this date:
In 1862, during the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln removed Gen. George B. McClellan as general-in-chief of the Union armies, leaving him in command of the Army of the Potomac, a post McClellan also ended up losing.
In 1918, what were believed to be the first confirmed U.S. cases of a deadly global flu pandemic were reported among U.S. Army soldiers stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas; 46 soldiers would die. (The worldwide outbreak of influenza claimed an estimated 20 to 40 million lives.)
In 1942, as Japanese forces continued to advance in the Pacific during World War II, U.S. Army Gen. Douglas MacArthur left the Philippines for Australia, where he vowed on March 20, “I shall return” — a promise he kept more than 2 1/2 years later.
In 1954, the U.S. Army charged that Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy, R-Wis., and his subcommittee’s chief counsel, Roy Cohn, had exerted pressure to obtain favored treatment for Pvt. G. David Schine, a former consultant to the subcommittee. (The confrontation culminated in the famous Senate Army-McCarthy hearings.)
In 1985, Mikhail S. Gorbachev was chosen to succeed the late Konstantin U. Chernenko as general secretary of the Soviet Communist Party.
In 1997, rock star Paul McCartney was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II.
In 2002, two columns of light soared skyward from Ground Zero in New York as a temporary memorial to the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks six months earlier.
In 2004, ten bombs exploded in quick succession across the commuter rail network in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 people in an attack linked to al-Qaida-inspired militants.
In 2006, former Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic (sloh-BOH’-dahn mee-LOH’-shuh-vich) was found dead of a heart attack in his prison cell in the Netherlands, abruptly ending his four-year U.N. war crimes trial; he was 64.
In 2010, a federal appeals court in San Francisco upheld the use of the words “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance and “In God We Trust” on U.S. currency.
In 2011, a magnitude-9.0 earthquake and resulting tsunami struck Japan’s northeastern coast, killing nearly 20,000 people and severely damaging the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power station.
In 2020, the World Health Organization declared the coronavirus outbreak a pandemic. Former Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein was sentenced in New York to 23 years in prison for rape and sexual abuse.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 10:04:38 AM
Five years ago: Preet Bharara, an outspoken Manhattan federal prosecutor known for crusading against public corruption, announced on his personal Twitter account that he was fired after refusing a request to resign from Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who had asked that leftover appointees of former President Barack Obama leave.
One year ago: In his first prime-time address, President Joe Biden pledged to make all adults eligible for coronavirus vaccines by May. Biden signed into law a $1.9 trillion COVID relief package that he said would help defeat the virus and nurse the economy back to health; Americans would receive up to $1,400 in direct payments, along with extended unemployment benefits. In a poll by The Associated Press and the NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, about 1 in 5 Americans said they had lost a relative or close friend to the coronavirus. Uber and Lyft said they had teamed up to create a database of drivers ousted from their ride-hailing services for complaints about sexual assault and other crimes.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 10:07:26 AM
Media mogul Rupert Murdoch is 91.
Former ABC News correspondent Sam Donaldson is 88.
Musician Flaco Jimenez (FLAH’-koh hee-MEH’-nez) is 83.
Actor Tricia O’Neil is 77.
Actor Mark Metcalf is 76.
Rock singer-musician Mark Stein (Vanilla Fudge) is 75.
Singer Bobby McFerrin is 72.
Movie director Jerry Zucker is 72.
Singer Cheryl Lynn is 71.
Actor Susan Richardson is 70.
Recording executive Jimmy Iovine (eye-VEEN’) is 69.
Singer Nina Hagen is 67.
Country singer Jimmy Fortune (The Statler Brothers) is 67.
Actor Elias Koteas (ee-LY’-uhs koh-TAY’-uhs) is 61.
Actor-director Peter Berg is 60.
Singer Mary Gauthier (GOH’-shay) is 60.
Actor Jeffrey Nordling is 60.
Actor Alex Kingston is 59.
Actor Wallace Langham is 57.
Former U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., D-Ill., is 57.
Actor John Barrowman is 55.
Singer Lisa Loeb is 54.
Neo-soul musician Al Gamble (St. Paul & the Broken Bones) is 53.
Singer Pete Droge is 53.
Actor Terrence Howard is 53.
Rock musician Rami Jaffee is 53.
Actor Johnny Knoxville is 51.
Rock singer-musicians Benji and Joel Madden (Good Charlotte; The Madden Brothers) are 43.
Actor David Anders is 41.
Singer LeToya Luckett is 41.
Actor Thora Birch is 40.
TV personality Melissa Rycroft is 39.
Actor Rob Brown is 38.
Actor Jodie Comer is 29.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 10:07:54 AM
Raz Over/Under is 11
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 10:24:38 AM
Today's Over/Under is 5.7
Raz Over/Under is 11
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 10:46:59 AM
Today's Over/Under is 5.Not even. I got 4. There's a lot of names I recognize but couldn't put faces to.
Raz Over/Under is 11
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 11:23:29 AM
Also 7 for me.Today's Over/Under is 5.7
Raz Over/Under is 11
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 11:34:53 AM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 11:38:56 AM
How about that, from a big day yesterday to the dumps today for Raz. Interesting.The bday list is very fickle.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 12:05:00 PM
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Post by: A Friend of Charlie on March 11, 2022, 12:31:22 PM
Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 01:07:09 PM
The confusion is understandable, since it doesn't make any damn sense.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 01:16:42 PM
It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 01:26:45 PM
Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
Post by: FloridaDean on March 11, 2022, 01:32:21 PM
got a wet ass on the links. by the time we made the turn it started to pour. we finished 18 and the sun came out.
ready for the hottub and a nap. but maybe not in that order.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 01:50:20 PM
Happy Friday guys.Looks like a lot of weather coming across FL today. The Players has been suspended for several hours after they tried playing through half a monsoon.
got a wet ass on the links. by the time we made the turn it started to pour. we finished 18 and the sun came out.
ready for the hottub and a nap. but maybe not in that order.
Afternoon, TradeOneWetForAnotherDean.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 01:51:59 PM
No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
Post by: FloridaDean on March 11, 2022, 02:02:33 PM
winter is back for the weekend.Happy Friday guys.Looks like a lot of weather coming across FL today. The Players has been suspended for several hours after they tried playing through half a monsoon.
got a wet ass on the links. by the time we made the turn it started to pour. we finished 18 and the sun came out.
ready for the hottub and a nap. but maybe not in that order.
Afternoon, TradeOneWetForAnotherDean.
Post by: FloridaDean on March 11, 2022, 02:05:10 PM
No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
this teacher didn't stand her ground against a 5 year old student.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida-teacher-hospitalized-after-attack-by-5-year-old-needs-surgery-union-says-its-childs-3rd-attack
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 02:07:09 PM
Well, I would argue recent stand your ground cases haven't followed the tenets you've laid out, but I don't care to argue, so I'm not going to.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd case, so police are still subject to some degree to these five doctrines.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
As for the rest of it, maybe I'm coming at it from a different perspective, as the father of 3 school-aged kids. Instead of being suspended, this guy should get a medal. I'm not worried about the potential for injury or the potential for lawsuits. I'm seeing the potential child funerals that weren't being planned later that day and commending the guy. He may not have acted rationally or logically, but I'm more than happy with the results.
And in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 02:07:41 PM
Lol, GFY.winter is back for the weekend.Happy Friday guys.Looks like a lot of weather coming across FL today. The Players has been suspended for several hours after they tried playing through half a monsoon.
got a wet ass on the links. by the time we made the turn it started to pour. we finished 18 and the sun came out.
ready for the hottub and a nap. but maybe not in that order.
Afternoon, TradeOneWetForAnotherDean.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 02:08:47 PM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 02:14:46 PM
https://halfwheel.com/cigars-international-revamps-cigarfest-cancels-mega-herf/405844/?fbclid=IwAR2LKTZYQ6xPnsCZ0JZxwrFr3VCY-igKjluci0EvzCsruxN9tEbVfslewKg
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 02:18:31 PM
Post by: FloridaDean on March 11, 2022, 02:22:56 PM
Looks like CF is dead permanently. Also, it looks like those of us who show up for the Fest but not the main ticketed event have been recognized. Lolno tailgating without a ticket?
https://halfwheel.com/cigars-international-revamps-cigarfest-cancels-mega-herf/405844/?fbclid=IwAR2LKTZYQ6xPnsCZ0JZxwrFr3VCY-igKjluci0EvzCsruxN9tEbVfslewKg
Barry must be smoking in his grave.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 02:25:55 PM
Well, I would argue recent stand your ground cases haven't followed the tenets you've laid out, but I don't care to argue, so I'm not going to.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd case, so police are still subject to some degree to these five doctrines.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
As for the rest of it, maybe I'm coming at it from a different perspective, as the father of 3 school-aged kids. Instead of being suspended, this guy should get a medal. I'm not worried about the potential for injury or the potential for lawsuits. I'm seeing the potential child funerals that weren't being planned later that day and commending the guy. He may not have acted rationally or logically, but I'm more than happy with the results.
And in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.
You'd have to cite which cases you are referring to, because I'm not familiar with any that didn't. The Zimmerman and Rittenhouse cases both did, explicitly. I'd personally fault both for insufficient Avoidance, but in neither case did they exceed thresholds established in legal precedent. The press would like you to believe they did, but law and precedent say otherwise. The press is uniformly idiotic when it comes to self-defense issues. In the Rittenhouse case, the press made a huge and persistent stink about the fact that he was a minor carrying an AR-15. Horror! Outrage! Except it was legal under Wisconsin law, and under the laws of numerous other states as well. Rittenhouse failed none of the five doctrines per established legal thresholds, according to precedent. None. Neither did Zimmerman. Zimmerman was a dumbass, and his tactics were pathetic, and I'd personally like to bitch-slap him for that. But he managed not to violate the law. He might have been convicted in New York on Avoidance grounds, because New York is a duty to retreat state, and while Zimmerman WAS trying to retreat, New York might have been able to convict him on the basis of his following Trayvon Martin in the first place. But Florida is not a duty-to-retreat state. Under Florida law, Zimmerman had as much right to be where he was as Trayvon Martin did.
Interestingly, my state is not a Stand-Your-Ground state, but if you don't read the law carefully it's easy to mistake it for one. This is a frequent eye-opener in training classes I teach. Washington is not a Duty-to-Retreat state, either. But the law here does not, as in Florida, restrict certain Avoidance doctrines from being entered into evidence. I joke that Washington is a "take your chances state."
I can understand the sentiment about the coach. I am sympathetic. But as I teach the members of the church security team for which I am responsible, sentiment doesn't amount to much when you go on trial. We design exercises that put our team in these kinds of difficult situations, and it's a real eye-opener for them when we have to debrief them on what they did that could get them - and me - jailed for a long time.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 02:48:56 PM
Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Sounds like something in Cali. or Washington, but Georgia?
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 02:51:55 PM
And they probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the videos and comments the three rednecks posted on social media.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
Remember that there were no charges filed for about 2 months...only until after posted video was circulated to a larger audience.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 02:58:00 PM
And their federal charges (just like the Jan 6 dumbasses) were made on their own social postings.And they probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the videos and comments the three rednecks posted on social media.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
Remember that there were no charges filed for about 2 months...only until after posted video was circulated to a larger audience.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 03:04:01 PM
And they probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the videos and comments the three rednecks posted on social media.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
I don't think so. There was still the problem that Arbury was unarmed, and there were three of them, and they were armed. Even without the video, there are major Imminence, Innocence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness problems. It is true that the local authorities did not exercise due diligence. But some ambitious attorney was going to push the issue, if for no other reason than fame and fortune. That case was begging for it.
While I am a major proponent of Second Amendment rights, obviously, those rights are not served by incompetent enforcement of law. I do not believe we need any other law than the frameworks that define these five principles. They are sufficient, and anything additional is political grandstanding. But these principles should be strictly applied.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 03:05:33 PM
No more tickets at all. No more big fest, just a serious of small and free store events. Pretty much like CF for those of us who skipped the main event in recent years.Looks like CF is dead permanently. Also, it looks like those of us who show up for the Fest but not the main ticketed event have been recognized. Lolno tailgating without a ticket?
https://halfwheel.com/cigars-international-revamps-cigarfest-cancels-mega-herf/405844/?fbclid=IwAR2LKTZYQ6xPnsCZ0JZxwrFr3VCY-igKjluci0EvzCsruxN9tEbVfslewKg
Barry must be smoking in his grave.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 03:06:23 PM
We've got snow on the way tonight, 2-4 inches is the general consensus through tomorrow evening.And by tonight, of course I meant as soon as I left the house to pick up the kids from school.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:09:06 PM
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:12:12 PM
With this now out there, I think the principal and school board are going to have their hands full for a bit, and not with just setting non critical race theory and non gay curriculums.Well, I would argue recent stand your ground cases haven't followed the tenets you've laid out, but I don't care to argue, so I'm not going to.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd case, so police are still subject to some degree to these five doctrines.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
As for the rest of it, maybe I'm coming at it from a different perspective, as the father of 3 school-aged kids. Instead of being suspended, this guy should get a medal. I'm not worried about the potential for injury or the potential for lawsuits. I'm seeing the potential child funerals that weren't being planned later that day and commending the guy. He may not have acted rationally or logically, but I'm more than happy with the results.
And in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:15:04 PM
And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 03:15:06 PM
And their federal charges (just like the Jan 6 dumbasses) were made on their own social postings.And they probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the videos and comments the three rednecks posted on social media.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
Remember that there were no charges filed for about 2 months...only until after posted video was circulated to a larger audience.
I have deep personal issues about the Federal Civil Rights law under which they were prosecuted. I'm all for civil rights, and I'm all for these dumbasses being put away forever. But there are dangerous constitutional problems with the application of civil rights law. That said, I'm unlikely to win any arguments over that, and unlikely to pursue that debate. Racism is real, it's evil, and it should not be tolerated. If that's someone's gig, fuck them, fuck the horse they rode in on, and fuck the mothers who failed to raise them right.
I still don't see eye-to-eye with you on the Jan 6 thing, but that is based on some deeply arcane philosophical principles of mine, and like Golfin Dave I'm not going to pursue that argument. At the same time, I don't believe Ashli Babbit's death was unjustified. The guard that killed her passes muster on all five principles. He did his job, and he did it well. I pray that he doesn't lose sleep over that.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:20:37 PM
Application is another matter.
I am constantly surprised at what the court allows for reasonableness with the number of total dipshits that are out there.
For example...if I committed a crime, I would not post it on the internet!!! :o
That should automatically exclude the idiot from using the claim of reasonableness in their defense.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 03:25:59 PM
Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Sounds like something in Cali. or Washington, but Georgia?
What surprises you about it being Georgia? The public education system in this country isn't subject to local political leanings. It is uniformly dominated by the NEA, and the principles under which it functions are very much uniform across all fifty states. Local school boards do not have nearly the influence that the media tries to make out they do.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:27:33 PM
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:28:01 PM
That's why I tried to keep comments as general as I could. The Civil Rights case in regard to Arbury seems like just politics. They were already convicted of murder, what difference does it make except for wasting time and money?And their federal charges (just like the Jan 6 dumbasses) were made on their own social postings.And they probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the videos and comments the three rednecks posted on social media.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
Remember that there were no charges filed for about 2 months...only until after posted video was circulated to a larger audience.
I have deep personal issues about the Federal Civil Rights law under which they were prosecuted. I'm all for civil rights, and I'm all for these dumbasses being put away forever. But there are dangerous constitutional problems with the application of civil rights law. That said, I'm unlikely to win any arguments over that, and unlikely to pursue that debate. Racism is real, it's evil, and it should not be tolerated. If that's someone's gig, fuck them, fuck the horse they rode in on, and fuck the mothers who failed to raise them right.
I still don't see eye-to-eye with you on the Jan 6 thing, but that is based on some deeply arcane philosophical principles of mine, and like Golfin Dave I'm not going to pursue that argument. At the same time, I don't believe Ashli Babbit's death was unjustified. The guard that killed her passes muster on all five principles. He did his job, and he did it well. I pray that he doesn't lose sleep over that.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 03:32:00 PM
All criteria make perfect sense as written.
Application is another matter.
I am constantly surprised at what the court allows for reasonableness with the number of total dipshits that are out there.
For example...if I committed a crime, I would not post it on the internet!!! :o
That should automatically exclude the idiot from using the claim of reasonableness in their defense.
Nothing should be automatic about the law. That is, in my opinion, a profoundly illiberal position. The courts should not be tied to anything "automatic." Not even the three-strikes laws we've saddled them with.
Rules of evidence are well-established, going back centuries. If there's video, the lawyers can attempt to enter it, or object to it, and the judge will decide based on precedent if it's admissible. That's how it should be. Legislative and Executive meddling in the courts is exceedingly dangerous and has not produced positive results.
We spend way too much time and energy trying to engineer judicial results, to no good end.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 03:32:20 PM
This.That's why I tried to keep comments as general as I could. The Civil Rights case in regard to Arbury seems like just politics. They were already convicted of murder, what difference does it make except for wasting time and money?And their federal charges (just like the Jan 6 dumbasses) were made on their own social postings.And they probably would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the videos and comments the three rednecks posted on social media.No, Florida doesn't, actually. It's a stand-your-ground state, but use of force is subject to the same legal doctrines in all fifty states.Too bad this wasn't in FL, they have very ...let's say loose... self-defense laws.It's a little more complicated than it sounds, but yeah, it IS nuts. The fault is our lawsuit-happy society. Teachers and administrators are very much forbidden to manhandle or restrain students, and violating those policies will get swift termination. Even if a student assaults a teacher, the teacher is expected to evade and seek safety, and NOT to grapple with the student unless there is an imminent threat of injury or death and evasion is not an option.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...Wow. I was confused by the title but even more so after reading the details. WTF?
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
So in this case, the school district is alleging that the coach should have allowed the resource officer and administrator that were present to pursue the efforts to locate the firearms. It would have been one thing if the student had been holding the firearm, or the coach could see some evidence that the student had the firearm on their person. But that wasn't the case. The firearm was located later in a book-bag.
So...it's complicated. I can see both sides of this.
However - as a serious student of self-defense, both armed and unarmed, and its legal ramifications, my opinion is that the coach fucked up. He lost his temper when the student threw a stapler, grabbed the student by the shirt, shoved him against the wall and held him there. Even if we take all the education system rules about restraint out of this discussion, and just make it a self-defense situation, it was stupid. A weapon had not been presented, and there were other people in the room, so there's no imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point, you want to maintain enough distance to adequately respond to any threatening movements. You do NOT want to grapple unless there is no other choice - like if the miscreant grabs you. In a self-defense situation, you want to strike hard and fast, mitigate the threat, and disengage quickly. If you grab them by the shirt and shove them against the wall, you can't see what their hands are doing and they could easily split your gut with a knife, or fish out a concealed gun and shoot you. This coach should have been de-escalating, with eyes on every movement the student made, not suddenly going Rambo on the punk. So it was a dumb move from a self-defense perspective. The teacher lost his cool, and losing your cool in a potentially dangerous situation leads to stupid things.
Self-defense is really complicated.
There are five elements to a successful defense of use of potentially deadly force. They are:
Innocence - you can't have provoked the confrontation.
Imminence - there must be an immediate and apparent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Reasonableness - a reasonable person would assess the threat and respond the same way
Proportionality - the response must be proportional to the threat, and involve only action needed to end the threat. You don't get to shoot someone who is running away, or administer a headshot to finish an attacker who is laying on the ground bleeding from the bullets you already administered.
Avoidance - Reasonable effort should have been made to avoid or evade the confrontation. In stand-your-ground states avoidance may be diluted some, but in NO state is it completely obviated.
Of these, the most important is always Reasonableness.
Now, the coach in Georgia didn't use lethal force, but he used force that could have led to injury. So, if we apply these principles to the coach, in my opinion he fails, at least in part, on Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness, and I'm betting that these are exactly what the school district is basing its response on.
Law enforcement officers have some protection under limited-immunity doctrines, but that is not complete protection, as we've seen in the Floyd and Wright cases, so police are still subject to these five doctrines to a significant degree. In both cases, officers were faulted, essentially, on Reasonableness, Proportionality, and Imminence.
Civilians, including teachers, coaches, and school administrators, do not get limited immunity.
In the Arbury case, the defendants failed on all five, which is why life sentences were handed down. Those were some dumbass motherfuckers.
Remember that there were no charges filed for about 2 months...only until after posted video was circulated to a larger audience.
I have deep personal issues about the Federal Civil Rights law under which they were prosecuted. I'm all for civil rights, and I'm all for these dumbasses being put away forever. But there are dangerous constitutional problems with the application of civil rights law. That said, I'm unlikely to win any arguments over that, and unlikely to pursue that debate. Racism is real, it's evil, and it should not be tolerated. If that's someone's gig, fuck them, fuck the horse they rode in on, and fuck the mothers who failed to raise them right.
I still don't see eye-to-eye with you on the Jan 6 thing, but that is based on some deeply arcane philosophical principles of mine, and like Golfin Dave I'm not going to pursue that argument. At the same time, I don't believe Ashli Babbit's death was unjustified. The guard that killed her passes muster on all five principles. He did his job, and he did it well. I pray that he doesn't lose sleep over that.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:32:27 PM
I would take argument with that for probably a majority of the country, specifically red states. Our state legislation as with Florida and Texas have spend considerable time outlawing practices and initiating others for the public schools in the last couple years.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Sounds like something in Cali. or Washington, but Georgia?
What surprises you about it being Georgia? The public education system in this country isn't subject to political leanings. It is uniformly dominated by the NEA, and the principles under which it functions are very much uniform across all fifty states. Local school boards do not have nearly the influence that the media tries to make out they do.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:34:53 PM
Late start to the afternoon after errands.This is a 1502 Ruby, Tony.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
In my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:53:28 PM
Friday 24hr Special!
Starting now until tomorrow at midnight enjoy one special on three categories.
Graycliff
Perdomo
Cohiba
CODE: GCP = 25% off plus 5% reward points on categories above.
Quorum and Havana Q now 45% off
Quorum
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CODE: Q45 = 45% plus 5% reward points on Quorum and Havana Q
Please log in before using code
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 03:58:08 PM
Dave, I know why you said what you said, but I think thou dost protest too much. The guys that hang out here are smart people. We don't all agree on everything, but we agree on that. You and I have gotten into it on occasion, but have I ever disrespected you? If I did, I apologize. I don't argue with people I don't respect. It's a waste of time.In my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Yes, I know, people have abandoned this group because they didn't like what was said. That's sad, but...it's also stupid. Tony makes it clear every day that people here should have thick skin. I try to give as good as I get, and I'll give it thick and hard when I can. Insert obscene joke here.
But if I get pwned, I'll take my lumps. JWacky owned me on a regular basis, because he's a very, very smart guy. Sometimes it made me have to go bang my head on convenient walls. But I still get the occasional message from him, and if he ever sent me a message that he was in trouble, I'd be on the road to help before the second text came in.
There are no snowflakes here. You should be willing to engage me.
But do your homework, because if I can back you into a corner, I will. It's not personal. Just logic. I'll beat you if I can, and if I can't, I'll own that you beat me.
Fair enough?
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 04:01:07 PM
This too.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 04:08:39 PM
Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 04:12:40 PM
And yet there is consistent practice in the school systems pretty much across the board. Remember, I'm not just a casual observer here, I'm married to a certified teacher, who works primarily with deeply troubled kids. The kind who throw chairs.I would take argument with that for probably a majority of the country, specifically red states. Our state legislation as with Florida and Texas have spend considerable time outlawing practices and initiating others for the public schools in the last couple years.Teacher stops potential school shooting, gets suspended. This fucking country, I swear...
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/teacher-suspended-restraining-armed-student-164158446.html
Sounds like something in Cali. or Washington, but Georgia?
What surprises you about it being Georgia? The public education system in this country isn't subject to political leanings. It is uniformly dominated by the NEA, and the principles under which it functions are very much uniform across all fifty states. Local school boards do not have nearly the influence that the media tries to make out they do.
In significant part, it has nothing to do with teachers or unions. It's the insurance companies and the courts. When you and I were kids, we feared getting sent to the principal's office, because it usually meant we were gonna get some "licks," and I don't mean sexual abuse. Nostalgia notwithstanding, was that really a good system? I experienced it in Texas in the mid 70's. As conservative as I am, and I definitely am, I'm not remotely convinced that was a good way to do things. Regardless of that, the insurance companies don't want teachers and administrators manhandling kids. There's too much risk there. And Golfin' Dave's sympathies notwithstanding, when I watch the video of the coach in Georgia, I do not see a man worried about protecting students from getting shot, I see a man who lost his shit because a kid disrespected him. Disrespect may be a problem that needs to be addressed, but not by a man who wants to kick some ass because he thought some punk insulted him. They know the gig. It isn't about their manhood.
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 04:15:34 PM
Then where DO you argue?Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
It has to be somewhere, why not here with people who respect each other?
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 04:19:41 PM
Mostly just the wife, cause she's legally obligated to put up with it.Then where DO you argue?Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
It has to be somewhere, why not here with people who respect each other?
Post by: razgueado on March 11, 2022, 04:27:27 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiight.Mostly just the wife, cause she's legally obligated to put up with it.Then where DO you argue?Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
It has to be somewhere, why not here with people who respect each other?
She ain't obligated to shit. You have better odds here. We can't nail your ass for child support.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 04:29:51 PM
I'm not worried. She knows if she kicked me out, she'd be screwed the first time the toilet clogged.Riiiiiiiiiiight.Mostly just the wife, cause she's legally obligated to put up with it.Then where DO you argue?Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
It has to be somewhere, why not here with people who respect each other?
She ain't obligated to shit. You have better odds here. We can't nail your ass for child support.
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 04:39:35 PM
Also, you know, the love.I'm not worried. She knows if she kicked me out, she'd be screwed the first time the toilet clogged.Riiiiiiiiiiight.Mostly just the wife, cause she's legally obligated to put up with it.Then where DO you argue?Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
It has to be somewhere, why not here with people who respect each other?
She ain't obligated to shit. You have better odds here. We can't nail your ass for child support.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
I always enjoy discussions with you.Dave, I know why you said what you said, but I think thou dost protest too much. The guys that hang out here are smart people. We don't all agree on everything, but we agree on that. You and I have gotten into it on occasion, but have I ever disrespected you? If I did, I apologize. I don't argue with people I don't respect. It's a waste of time.In my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
Yes, I know, people have abandoned this group because they didn't like what was said. That's sad, but...it's also stupid. Tony makes it clear every day that people here should have thick skin. I try to give as good as I get, and I'll give it thick and hard when I can. Insert obscene joke here.
But if I get pwned, I'll take my lumps. JWacky owned me on a regular basis, because he's a very, very smart guy. Sometimes it made me have to go bang my head on convenient walls. But I still get the occasional message from him, and if he ever sent me a message that he was in trouble, I'd be on the road to help before the second text came in.
There are no snowflakes here. You should be willing to engage me.
But do your homework, because if I can back you into a corner, I will. It's not personal. Just logic. I'll beat you if I can, and if I can't, I'll own that you beat me.
Fair enough?
If we only talked with people we agree with, and don't challenge ourselves to listen and understand, we don't have to think and broaden our view.
I don't take offense easily, and never feel that from you.
All good.
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 05:10:00 PM
Discussion and differences of opinion are different than arguing. To me arguing is when you have no room for a difference of opinion and is an excercise in beating your head against a wall. I no longer have the time or energy for that futile exercise.Then where DO you argue?Maybe it is, but I've tried to turn over a new leaf the last few months, and arguing on the banter is something I've left behind.Think it's highly appropriate for the banterIn my defense, I wasn't expecting it to turn into a thing or I never would've shared it.And now, I bid you hazzuh!Oh, you just dump bad news then hit the door?
It has to be somewhere, why not here with people who respect each other?
Post by: Oyam18 on March 11, 2022, 08:26:01 PM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 08:43:23 PM
Put in an offer on a place today. Now let’s see. Things don’t last over 2 days here if they are anywhere near livable.That's pretty exciting, good luck!
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 09:11:26 PM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 09:15:51 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220312/1ac7facd1790f09884b7bfa861db85f0.jpg)
Post by: Travellin Dave on March 11, 2022, 10:55:53 PM
Post by: LuvTooGolf on March 11, 2022, 11:43:23 PM
Finishing with a Namakubi.Fine choice.