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Author Topic: 9/20/2018  (Read 10929 times)

A Friend of Charlie

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2018, 05:47:50 PM »

Wow, this is fun today. Learning all sorts of cool stuff.
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South Carolina Redfish

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2018, 06:08:26 PM »

Oh, and was there a passenger on the bike? Because that could be a major influence as well.
No passenger and that info is all very helpful.  My job is to find every conceivable problem with the roadway but it helps to have some idea of how those factors might weigh in and I don’t know doodle-poo about motorcycles.

Thanks!
And I know doodle-poo about roadway design, but there shouldn't be that large of an inconsistency without some warning signs or reduced speed, especially at the end of a curve leading onto a bridge.  That is a gradual curve, but a rider's concentration increases as one enters any curve and decreases after leaving it.  A big bump at that bridge immediately after the curve surely caught him off guard.
The other thing to note is that the bump may be more significant than the specs indicate. Out here on Interstate 5 crossing the Nisqually River, there is a joint like you describe, but it's aggravated by depressions caused by millions of semi-truck wheels hitting that joint. So if you measure the difference at the joint it just looks like a 1" difference, but back up to where the wheel patch of the front tire of a semi is when the front of the tire hits the joint, and you'll find a deeper depression that will play havoc with a biker. Then consider that after the bike's front wheel hits the depression and the joint and spooks the rider, the back wheel hits the depressions and the joint and bounces his weight up off the seat, and now you've got a sphincter check going on. Throw some straw on the road, and the change of surface and you've got things starting to pile up negatively.

I'm a trained rider with a lot of experience on street and dirt bikes, so I just habitually prepare for ugliness going on to bridges - keep it straight, contract my leg muscles, prepare for the bumps. But if the rider isn't trained or is new to the bike, real easy to see how he could wind up chewing on concrete.
What he said.
All I know is what the lawyer told me but I will measure everything when I go out there next week.

When I am done they will decide if it warrants the cost of moving forward.
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razgueado

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2018, 06:16:57 PM »

Productive day here, neighbor friend brought his mega hot 30 year old wife down for a visit.  He and I been drinking while my eyes targeted her assets like a laser beam.

Lawyer called me and offered me some nice whiskey money to go look at a crash scene for him next week.
You're a retired man now. Be careful not to strain yourself.
Don’t you worry😀

You and been can help me, it is a damn motorcycle wreck.  Harley traveling about 55-60 and at a bridge there is a 1-1.5” uneven vertical joint where the bridge joins the pavement.  Road is lower than the bridge.  Would that bump be a significant enough obstacle to cause the bike to lose control?  There are other issues but that is the big one.
Definitely could be.  Which model Harley?
Don’t know that yet but it is a big one
That is a large and abrupt change in elevation, but if the bike were going that speed and encountered it straight on, I'd say unlikely without mitigating factors like wet pavement or interfering traffic.  At slower speed or at an angle, then yes, could cause a crash.
Thanks, there is a possible factor being pine straw on the pavement according to the police report.

Also there is a long curve in the road just before the bridge .  Roadway is asphalt and bridge is concrete.  The picture shows the curve and you can see where the bridge joins the pavement which is where he lost control.  Daytime and dry.
That curve shouldn't really factor. Lots of room to have straightened the bike by then.
I take this back. I went into maps and zoomed in and out myself and there isn't necessarily ample room to get the bike straightened out after the curve. So the curve may factor in as well.
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2018, 08:40:50 PM »

Productive day here, neighbor friend brought his mega hot 30 year old wife down for a visit.  He and I been drinking while my eyes targeted her assets like a laser beam.

Lawyer called me and offered me some nice whiskey money to go look at a crash scene for him next week.
You're a retired man now. Be careful not to strain yourself.
Don’t you worry😀

You and been can help me, it is a damn motorcycle wreck.  Harley traveling about 55-60 and at a bridge there is a 1-1.5” uneven vertical joint where the bridge joins the pavement.  Road is lower than the bridge.  Would that bump be a significant enough obstacle to cause the bike to lose control?  There are other issues but that is the big one.
Definitely could be.  Which model Harley?
Don’t know that yet but it is a big one
That is a large and abrupt change in elevation, but if the bike were going that speed and encountered it straight on, I'd say unlikely without mitigating factors like wet pavement or interfering traffic.  At slower speed or at an angle, then yes, could cause a crash.
Thanks, there is a possible factor being pine straw on the pavement according to the police report.

Also there is a long curve in the road just before the bridge .  Roadway is asphalt and bridge is concrete.  The picture shows the curve and you can see where the bridge joins the pavement which is where he lost control.  Daytime and dry.
That curve shouldn't really factor. Lots of room to have straightened the bike by then.
I take this back. I went into maps and zoomed in and out myself and there isn't necessarily ample room to get the bike straightened out after the curve. So the curve may factor in as well.
from what I see, it is apparent that the approach pavement has settled at the bridge approach. you can noticably see 'rubber' n the driving lane coming onto the bridge. the curve of the road seems slight to bother a driver at 55/60 mph. check the states spec book for bridge deck approaches and last state bridge inspection report and maintenance report. the transition from road surface to bridge deck should be a smooth one. spec book should be on state website, inspection reports you'll have to ask for from the state or govt body.
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #109 on: September 20, 2018, 08:46:01 PM »

Bridge  owners  have  long  recognized  that  the  approach pavement  at bridges is prone to  exhibiting both  settlement  and cracking,  which manifest  as the “bump at  the end  of  the  bridge.” This  deterioration  requires considerable  on-going maintenance expenditures, added risk  to maintenance  workers,  increased  distraction to drivers,  reduced steering control, increased  damage to  vehicles, a  negative  public  perception  of  the  highway  system, and  a shortened  useful  bridge  life. This problem  has recently begun to  receive significant  national  attention, as  bridge  owners  have increased  the priority of dealing with  this recurring  problem. No single factor, in  and of itself (individually), leads to significant  problems. Rather, it is  an  interaction  between  multiple factors that typically leads to  problematic conditions. As such,  solutions  to the  problem  require interdisciplinary thinking and implementation.  The  bridge-abutment interface is a  highly-complex  region  and an effective “bump at the end  of the bridge”  solution must  address  the structural,  geotechnical,  hydraulic, and construction engineering  disciplines.  Various design  alternatives, construction practices, and maintenance  methods exist to  minimize bridge  approach settlement, but each has  its own drawbacks,  such  as cost, limited effectiveness,  or inconvenience to  the  public. The  objective  of  this  work  is  to  assist the Ohio  Department  of  Transportation in  the  development  of  pre-construction, construction,  and post-construction strategies that  will help  eliminate or  minimize the “bump  at the end of the bridge.” Implementation  of  the details  and  procedures  described  herein  will provide a tangible  benefit to both the Ohio  Department of  Transportation and  the traveling  public, in  the  form  of  smoother  bridge  transitions, reduced  maintenance costs, and a safer  driving environment.

Bridge approach settlement can be caused by  a number of factors including: 1.) Seasonal temperature changes causing horizontal movements of  abutments; 2.) Loss of  backfill material by erosion; 3.) Poor  construction practices (e.g., poor joint and drainage system construction, poor compaction of backfill materials, etc.); 4.) Settlement of the foundation soils; 5.) High traffic loads; and 6.)  Incompatibility in the vertical system stiffness. The two primary causes reported in  the literature are lateral movement of  the bridge and settlement of site soils.

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razgueado

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2018, 08:56:15 PM »

Bridge  owners  have  long  recognized  that  the  approach pavement  at bridges is prone to  exhibiting both  settlement  and cracking,  which manifest  as the “bump at  the end  of  the  bridge.” This  deterioration  requires considerable  on-going maintenance expenditures, added risk  to maintenance  workers,  increased  distraction to drivers,  reduced steering control, increased  damage to  vehicles, a  negative  public  perception  of  the  highway  system, and  a shortened  useful  bridge  life. This problem  has recently begun to  receive significant  national  attention, as  bridge  owners  have increased  the priority of dealing with  this recurring  problem. No single factor, in  and of itself (individually), leads to significant  problems. Rather, it is  an  interaction  between  multiple factors that typically leads to  problematic conditions. As such,  solutions  to the  problem  require interdisciplinary thinking and implementation.  The  bridge-abutment interface is a  highly-complex  region  and an effective “bump at the end  of the bridge”  solution must  address  the structural,  geotechnical,  hydraulic, and construction engineering  disciplines.  Various design  alternatives, construction practices, and maintenance  methods exist to  minimize bridge  approach settlement, but each has  its own drawbacks,  such  as cost, limited effectiveness,  or inconvenience to  the  public. The  objective  of  this  work  is  to  assist the Ohio  Department  of  Transportation in  the  development  of  pre-construction, construction,  and post-construction strategies that  will help  eliminate or  minimize the “bump  at the end of the bridge.” Implementation  of  the details  and  procedures  described  herein  will provide a tangible  benefit to both the Ohio  Department of  Transportation and  the traveling  public, in  the  form  of  smoother  bridge  transitions, reduced  maintenance costs, and a safer  driving environment.

Bridge approach settlement can be caused by  a number of factors including: 1.) Seasonal temperature changes causing horizontal movements of  abutments; 2.) Loss of  backfill material by erosion; 3.) Poor  construction practices (e.g., poor joint and drainage system construction, poor compaction of backfill materials, etc.); 4.) Settlement of the foundation soils; 5.) High traffic loads; and 6.)  Incompatibility in the vertical system stiffness. The two primary causes reported in  the literature are lateral movement of  the bridge and settlement of site soils.
And when Dean talks about stiffness...

;-)

Nice commentary. I was hoping you'd chip in.
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2018, 08:56:58 PM »

Walkinshaw  (1978)  suggested that  bridges  with a differential settlement of 2.5  inches (63  mm) or greater  needs to be repaired. Bozozuk  (1978)  stated that settlement bumps could be allowed up to 3.9 inches (100 mm) in the vertical direction and 2.0  inches (50 mm) in the horizontal direction. Several researchers define the allowable bumps in terms of gradients as a function of the length of  the  approach  slab. Wahls  (1990)  and Stark et al.  (1995)  suggested an allowable settlement gradient as 1/200 of the approach slab length. This  critical gradient was also referred by Long et al.  (1998), which was used by the  Illinois DOT for initiating maintenance  operations. 
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2018, 08:59:54 PM »

just got home a bit ago, was at a,merting. approach slabs and pavement settlements were a pet peave of mine, especially at snow and ice season when plows were on the road.
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2018, 09:03:06 PM »

There have been many studies  employed across the states in the U.S.A. to  study  the causes  of  the  problem and  the  methodologies  to  solve  it  (Hopkins, 1969, 1985; Stewart, 1985; Greimann et al., 1987; Laguros et al., 1990; Kramer and Sajer, 1991; Ha  et  al.,  2002; Jayawickrama  et  al.,  2005;  White  et  al.,  2005,  2007).  The  causes  can be  very  variable  and  are still too complex to identify them  easily. However, the primary  sources of the problem can be broadly divided into four categories: material properties of foundation and embankment; design criteria for bridge foundation, abutment, and deck; construction supervision of the structures;  and maintenance criteria. It  should  be  noted that not all the  factors contribute to  the formation of the  bump concurrently. (notice they,list 'maintenance criteria')
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A Friend of Charlie

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2018, 09:09:22 PM »

Damn, Dean. I just came back from parents night and I still feel like I'm in school. There isn't a quiz in the morning, is there?
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2018, 09:14:32 PM »

Damn, Dean. I just came back from parents night and I still feel like I'm in school. There isn't a quiz in the morning, is there?
I hope not.
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Threebean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2018, 09:40:12 PM »

Damn, Dean. I just came back from parents night and I still feel like I'm in school. There isn't a quiz in the morning, is there?
I hope not.
But we may be hearing about poor joints, drainage system problems, and compaction of backfill again. 
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FloridaDean

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2018, 09:42:43 PM »

Damn, Dean. I just came back from parents night and I still feel like I'm in school. There isn't a quiz in the morning, is there?
I hope not.
But we may be hearing about poor joints, drainage system problems, and compaction of backfill again.
poor joints, drainage problems, we talking bridges or getting old?
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Bad Dad

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #118 on: September 20, 2018, 10:26:16 PM »

good morning.
I emailed BadDad yesterday. I got this:
Hi Dean,

Thank you for the invitation to post onto the cigar banter. 
I remember there were two banters, and I've lost my links to both of them.

Would you mind sending me the link...?

I hope your doing ok in Florida ...  Florida, right..?

Later Man,
Curt (badpawpa@charter.net)

sucks to get old.
Hello everyone ....!  Thanks for inviting me back to the banter, and to Dean for finding me ....   :)
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Bad Dad

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Re: 9/20/2018
« Reply #119 on: September 20, 2018, 10:35:26 PM »

good morning.
I emailed BadDad yesterday. I got this:
Hi Dean,

Thank you for the invitation to post onto the cigar banter. 
I remember there were two banters, and I've lost my links to both of them.

Would you mind sending me the link...?

I hope your doing ok in Florida ...  Florida, right..?

Later Man,
Curt (badpawpa@charter.net)

sucks to get old.
At least we know he's still alive to buy his wife all manner of Halloween costume. Morning, Dean.
Hi Dave(s) ....  Yelp, I'm still alive and living the good life (air conditioning, tv, and popcorn).   :)
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